Hi everyone! My name is Michael. I haven't been juggling too long (about a year now), but I love it so so much! I also practice a bunch of other different flow arts like poi, staff, hoops, contact juggling, etc. and have been doing so for the last four years. Hmmm. Right now I'm working on my four ball fountain, four ball patterns with multiplexes, and more three ball tricks. I've also started juggling large hula hoops, but I've only got a cascade right now. I'll be attending Congress of Jugglers 2014. You know, if they manage to put up the info for this year's event any time soon. Still waiting on that one. I also attend the Austin Jugglefest when I can, but I'm no longer a local because of school. I think that is nearly it. I also take a lot of dance classes, practice contortion, and I'm trying really hard to perfect my handstands. I'm just a somewhat normal college student with hobbies I am passionate about. :) *waves* Also, if anyone is local to Maryland in the US, let me know! I'd love to find some people to pass with. I haven't been able to pass since I moved. XD
Hi Michael,
According to the University of Maryland Juggling Club facebook group www.facebook.com/groups/185283864873342/ the 2014 Congress of Juggling will be 2-4 May 2014.
If you meet them, you might encourage them to update their Juggling Edge listing
I hope you find someone to pass with.
Thank you!!!!
I just sent a request to join the Facebook group. I can't wait for May to roll around.
I'll definitely encourage them to update the listing. :D
pumpkineater23 - - Vorredner #
Hello Michael and welcome to the Edge!
Robotic juggle - - Vorredner #
A year ISNT LONG ENOUGH and never will be welcome to the site
your response, Robotic juggle, is very confusing as it appears to be unfriendly and contradict the widely held opinion that everyone is welcome to this site no matter how long they have been juggling (or since they have been juggling).
Robotic juggle - - Vorredner #
Whoops thats not what i meant ayear of juggling will isnt to much it never will be enougj no matter the years. Welcome to the site sorry if i hurt your feels
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
pro tip - once you've written something, read it back before hitting the "post" button.
Also, punctuation is your friend when trying to make two statements read like two statements instead of one!
Yeah that ^, the preview button is your friend.
Bear in mind that currently over a quarter of this site's registered users are from countries with a first language other than English (according to selected timezone). Punctuation exists for a reason! Without it words lose a lot of meaning & you can't expect everyone to be able to fill in the gaps.
I remember once emailing someone from Hungary referencing, "a comment they had posted against one of my articles". I really upset the guy because he thought I used against as in 'opposed to' where as I meant it as 'on the same page as', he wrote me a massive email protesting his innocence. It took me ages to clear that up!
Right at the start of the Edge I did consider blocking all messages that didn't contain any punctuation.
Ooh, there's a browser plugin that hides youtube comments without punctuation.....
Robotic juggle - - Vorredner #
yah I am just an avid texter; so I have a terrible habit of not punctuating, and I use texting shortcuts sometimes not taking into account that it probably reads differently in say French for instance
RegularJugular - - Vorredner #
I often think trifling nuances of the English language are overrated. Things I done/things I did etc. Then when I go to a BJC and there are jugglers speaking English, as a second language, better than I do, WTF? If they as people who aren't even from this country know it so well, why the frying fork didn't I learn it better?
'Sometimes', though... Perfect start to a second sentence. Two statements perfectly separable, wanting to be joined as one. Your messages are like a love story for words that felt they could never part from each other.
Lol???
Sometimes the preview button doesn't help. It just looks mental anyway. Then when it is bonkers, it looks perfectly fine. Just me? OK then.
Lol???
Talking of misunderstanding text, I see this a lot & have never got it. Are you questioning whether you are laughing? Or ending your laugh in a higher pitch like "I'm Ron Burgundy?"?!
I've always preferred "hahahaha" because it actually sounds like laughter when you read it.
RegularJugular - - Vorredner #
The way I see it, sometimes laughter is infectious and other when times the person who is laughing appears to be some kind of buffoon. That little snippet of text was more of a "That was funny, amirite guys? Guys?!? Where did you all go?" kind of emotionally insecure foolishness that I'm prone to in real life.
Also three exclamation or question marks is also the limit at which Terry Pratchett considers to be mentally stable... So that was a statement bordering on feeling wimperingly nutty. Somewhat like flaked almonds, cooked on a waffle. OK, so something not quite, but almost entirely unlike that. Alrighty then, my work here is done. Up, up and away!!!!!
Mostly Irrelevant link: https://www.taylormali.com/poems-online/totally-like-whatever-you-know/
RegularJugular - - Vorredner #
Hmm, I haven't actually welcomed S3raph to the site, yet.
Welcome! Hope you enjoy it here :)
and don't mind me, I'm not normally like this.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
"Never read the bottom 1/3 of the internet"
never a wiser thing was said
although I wonder if avoiding the bottom 4/5 might be more like it
I think I would have understood that the same way he did. I've never heard 'against' used in that way before.
Hi Michael *waves back* & welcome.
I've found some contact email addresses for some UMD jugglers & sent an email asking if there is any more news but I'm sure they are like all other festival organisers & are unfeasibly busy so it might just be a case of being patient.
What sort of contortion do you do? Is this a new thing or were your joints manipulated as a child?
Hey Orinoco,
Thanks for the update. I sent a request to join the Facebook group, so hopefully I'll be getting some information from them soon. I'm sure they are very busy. :3
Practicing being bendy isn't exactly new for me. I've been practicing yoga since I was a young teen. However, becoming interested in contortion specifically is a fairly new thing. Are there a lot of different types of contortion? I also practice acroyoga.
https://youtu.be/xECiTdgy9nE
Following up on my emails that I sent, two bounced, nothing back from the others yet :(
There's a few different types of contortionism, I think back bending is generally the most common found in circus. This is where the performer is able to bend over backwards as if they have a hinged spine. Dislocations are quite common too where the performer is able to pop a shoulder in & out of joint at will. There's also a name for contontionists who specialise in squeezing themselves into tight spaces which I can't remember... enterologists according to the internets, a name shared with a doctor who specialises in the intestines. I'm sure there are other specialisations too.
That's okay. I was just approved for the Facebook group, so I'm sure I'll get some info soon. :)
Ah, okay. I didn't know that. I do back bending and inversions (lots of handstands and headstands).
Robotic juggle - - Vorredner #
A year ISNT LONG ENOUGH and never will be welcome to the site
Robotic juggle - - Vorredner #
oops wrong thread
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
Welcome to the edge. Nice to have another American in the mix.
I sent you a warm "howdy" From the Carolinas.
:D Heya.
Maybe I'll see you around at an east coast event. Congress of Jugglers, maybe? :P
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
maybe, I'm not able to travel a lot though.
Hi jugglers!
I'm Anneroos, a 25-year-old girl from Groningen (The Netherlands) and I'm new here. :)
Although I used to play diabolo, I am now more into juggling with balls. I'm practicing with 3, 4 and 5 balls, and once in a while I give 6 and 7 balls a try.
The WJW (Winter Jongleerweekend) in Heerlen was the last convention that I attended, and the next convention will probably be the Dutch one (NJF).
I don't have juggling videos, but you might have seen me appearing in one of Woett's videos (e.g. https://youtu.be/rQjCCuA7uOs).
See you around!
Cheers,
Anneroos
Daniel Simu - - Vorredner #
Hoi Anneroos
Wat gezellig nu zijn we al minstens 3 medelanders!
Daniel
pumpkineater23 - - Vorredner #
Welcome. And nice video, thanks for the link.
Rob van Heijst - - Vorredner #
Heyheyhey Anneroos!
Wat dolletjes dat jij hier nu ook bent :)
Dreams about juggling
... what are they all about?
I remember three of the dreams I had about juggling (though I know there were a few more). Compared to how much I juggle in real life I feel like I don't dream very often about it.
I want to tell you about the dream I had yesterday:
My flatmate had his first juggling performance (in real life he juggles very little but performs often as a clown) and I was watching it.
He wore a suit and did some poetry while doing some juggling tricks. I was impressed by the tricks that he did, as they were better than what I was expecting.
The last trick that he did though was something I've never seen before.. he juggled 4 balls in a fountain pattern but with the two of his feet.
Throughout the rest of the dream I was very baffled and walked around talking to people about this. Also I met other people I knew (from real life) that (in real life) normally didnt juggle who showed me some tricks.
One of the other two that I remember was quite similar; an old friend of mine did an impossible(!) trick and afterwards talked a bit about it and explained why he had started practicing it.
The third one (though chronologically the first) was about a big juggling parade in which strange people did impossible things. It occured to me when I was about a half a year into juggling.
What do your dreams that involve juggling look like?
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
I can't remember a single juggling dream I've ever had (I'm not even sure I've ever had one) but then I've been juggling for over 2 decades[1] so that's a lot of dreaming to take account of.
Anyway, on a whim I looked up juggling in a dream dictionary: https://dreammoods.com/cgibin/dreamdictionarysearch.pl?method=exact&header=dreamsymbol&search=juggling
Apparently dreaming about juggling means either:
- you have a very busy life and you're struggling/failing failing to cope
- you have a very busy life and you're coping just fine
Which is possibly the lamest, most blatant attempt at a Barnum statement that I've ever read.
[1] and boy are my arms tired!
I dream about juggling quite often. Last night I dreamt that I beat my 9 ball personal best. It felt very easy as if everything was in slow motion. I was pretty disappointed when I woke up.
pumpkineater23 - - Vorredner #
I've had a few dreams (not for along time though) where I am seeing something really different that I've never seen before. I try to remember when I wake up but can't seem to visualise it. I'm not sure if there ever was actually anything to visualise.
I've also had the occasional dream that people are watching me and I can't juggle at all. I'm trying but can't seem to keep the balls from dropping. It's an insecure kind of feeling, I'm glad when I wake up.
pumpkineater23 - - Vorredner #
I just remembered another juggling dream I had a few years back. I kept Falco Scheffler in a shed on an allotment. It sounds slightly sinister but it was actually quite a friendly understanding. He was allowed to come and go but I kept him there to teach me box variations. In the dream I was dropping off some music to him. Weird..
Hmmm.... Which other jugglers would we like to keep in a shed to teach us stuff? New thread? Hijack this one?
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
I can think of several jugglers who have sheds I'd like to visit.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
If we're keeping them for personal use, does it have to be a shed? Or would the basement do?
I'd keep mine in the kitchen. I hate doing dishes.
Although I would probably have to buy unsmashable plates, otherwise it would look like a Greek wedding had taken place every evening.
Depends on the ceiling height, I suppose. Do you have a roomy, high-ceilinged basement to keep jugglers happy in?
I love the way that whilst you are contemplating keeping a juggling in your basement, you are concerned about their juggling welfare and considering the ceiling height.
Very compassionate!
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
I wasn't
pumpkineater23 - - Vorredner #
I think the dark dampness of a basement might have a negative effect on their teaching ability, you might end up with a Gollum down there. In a shed they get plenty of fresh air.
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
social experiment.
take two exceptional jugglers of equal skill.
Put one in a nice clean air conditioned room with windows and marble floors.
Put the other in a dank basement with mediocre artificial lighting and a ceiling that is just high enough.
See what kind of tricks they each come up with.
I have 3 more sheds than the maximum number of objects I can juggle.
Thought you'd like to know that.
C
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
Nigel Green has one more shed than you
Mike Moore - - Vorredner #
Michael Falkov would be a great one. He may have stayed with me for a few days when he was a special guest at Waterloo. This guy breathes juggling, and it's amazing.
Murakami Tsubasa would also be high on the list. I'm sure he'd come up with stuff faster than I could learn it, anyway.
pumpkineater23 - - Vorredner #
Murakami would definitely be my choice. It's as if his juggling is from the future.
I just remembered a recent dream in which I was being some kind of Jason Bourne character (as usual) and was using some public facilities which were situated in a small shed (somewhat a la Farmer Paul) when I observed the bad guys sneaking up on my position. I was obliged to bash my way out of the unobserved side of this shed with my shoulder and then fly off while trying to pull up my trousers. Apparently it was a slapstick Bourne film, who knew.
(sheds are on topic anywhere right?)
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
No dreams that I remember but I have actually have had a nightmare where I forgot how to juggle.
woke up in a cold sweat.
Mike Moore - - Vorredner #
I once dreamt that for some reason, a number of my friends and I were being locked up. In our jail cell, there were a few bales of hay to sit on, and we each had 3 juggling balls. I was juggling, a ball went off my foot, and rolled well out of reach, to a (free) friend. It hit her foot.
She looked up, and scowled at me so intensely I woke up. She was a juggler in real life, I don't know why she'd be so angry at a ball hitting her foot!
I dream at least once in a week about convention. And the funny thing is that I'm never juggling, nor do I see other jugglers practicing or performing. But I know this is a juggling convention because in the dream I'm always involved in the organisation, so I have stuff to do.
Strangely, there's almost always something huge and unexpectable like the IIIrd world war, or a zombie attack (luckyly not always), which is not that strange in the end because it's quite usual for me to fight zombies or monsters in my dreams.
You get used to this strange mix.
Roflcopter - #
So today is my birthday and that means I have officially been juggling for one year.
this said I want to make a video. Not a stupid practice video like I normally do, like an actual amateur juggling film. So I want to find nice locations to do it at and I often run into the problem of not being able to take all of my props with me easily. Can anyone tell me a way to carry 6 20.5 inch (sorry metric system users)clubs, 10 75mm balls, and five 13cm rings all on one person? like a backpack? how do you carry your stuff?
I don't really want to carry a large suitcase if I can help it.
On the rare occasions I have to carry clubs... I take balls + rings in a backpack and then carry the clubs in my hand in a large bag.
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
yes but I have yet to find a backpack that will easily fit my clubs.
I tend to use cheap travel backpacks, I recently got a (slightly more expensive) new one a few weeks ago for around $60 which fits eight PX3s with some extra space for diabolos/juggling balls...
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
would you be able to provide a link to this carrying apparatus?
I got it from an Australian company, so depending on where you live you're probably better off going to a more local store but here's the bag: https://www.kathmandu.com.au/packs-and-bags/katun-pack-black.html
Depending on how much you need to carry, you may want to go for something a tiny bit bigger (maybe 45L instead of 40L) (in hindsight, I probably would for what I want to carry) but this comfortably fits everything that I need to fit in it so for me it's fine...
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
thanks:)
I thought Kathmandu was a New Zealand company, damn aussies claiming all the good Kiwi stuff
Hmm, I'd always assumed it was australia only, but doing a quick google not only are they in NZ but they also have a few stores in the UK:
- "The company set up its first retail outlets in Australia whilst manufacturing most of its original clothing range in New Zealand"
- "Kathmandu currently has 133 stores; 44 in New Zealand,83 in Australia and 6 in the United Kingdom as at the end of April 2013"
Ah, that'll be why I thought they were Kiwi, they had their manufacturing here.
Why do you use 13cm rings?
As for carrying all that stuff just take a piece of rope and tie a knot around the smallest part of your clubs and tie the rope to your backpack.
A bundle of clubs tied with the right knot is pretty secure.
Once the clubs are out of the way you have plenty of room in any ordinary backpack.
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
that could be a good idea. and I mean they are just standard size rings I think I meant thirteen inch.
my math not serve me well.
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
Sorry I meant 32cm
Seen this?
https://www.seriousjuggling.com/images/juggling-bags-equipment-props/mister-babache-juggling-big-pack.jpg
"The ultimate juggling back pack, the Mister Babache Big Pack is specially designed to hold all basic types of juggling equipment. Special pockets hold 10 clubs, 10 rings, 6 torches, personal papers and other small items, and as many other things as you can fit into the roomy main pocket. The Big Pack is constructed to allow you to clip on a Ball Pack, Diabolo Pack, or Devil Stick Pack (each sold separately). The shoulder straps and adjustable tops straps are embroidered with "Mister Babache JUGGLING" to declare your favorite hobby."
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
Blimey, are they still hawking those?
Ugliest. Backpack. Evah.
Agreed, and no I don't think they still sell them, at least can't find em anywhere in the UK. In reality any decent camping bag will be big enough to carry ~6 clubs, rings and balls; I tend to just user my 18L Herschel Rucksack, fits balls + rings (I don't take clubs anywhere anymore!).
pumpkineater23 - - Vorredner #
I imagine that would make a pretty good picnic bag too. Imagine all the baguettes you could fit in those 'special pockets'.
Daniel Simu - - Vorredner #
I would have loved such a thing, until I realized that all I need are my own balls. Clubs, devilsticks, diabolo and all these other toys that you only play once with during the whole convention you can easily borrow from someone else!
Also, Rofl, I suggest that you hire a cameraman and tell him to carry your stuff!
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
I will now start my search for this bag. I will track something down. Time to play internet detective.
I use a holdall style bag. You can get them for under £10 here in the UK. They have a large capacity compared to a backpack and are easier to take on planes. They normally have a shoulder strap for easier carrying. Mine is not very large but I can fit 7 clubs, 3 * 13 beanbags/balls as well as my 3 15cm diameter rhythmic gymnastic balls (inflated) and a bottle of water.
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
I've tried the hold all. I tried two different bags, one large and the other rather small. the large one was somehow not big enough to comfortably fit more than 4 clubs into and was actually quite dirty as it was very old. and the other I reserve for my track and cross country gear.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
I don't know how you were packing them, but I comfortably get quite a lot of kit into a small holdall - which is barely long enough to take a single club. Just for you, I videoed how much I can fit in it, this is the bag I take to most festivals[1] or if I'm going off practising[2].
http://juggling.tv/13843
The only thing I can't fit in are the rings, but I've never found a bag that would take rings comfortably without getting them all bent up and useless. Especially if I'm taking the babache jumbo rings anywhere, and if I'm taking any rings at all it's more likely to be the jumbo rings.
There's enough space that I could probably fit a few more odds and ends (or if I leave out the RG ball, I can easily fit another 2 clubs in) but this lot covers most eventualities.
[1] Sometimes it even makes it out of the boot of the car
[2] Yeah, as if!
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
okay let me try this again.
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
Well I managed to get them all into my small duffel with much stretching and a game of tetris. but I have gotten it to hold 6 Europeans, a bag of 10 balls and it has a strap on it that I attached five rings to.
perhaps with time it will get easier and easier to fit it all in. The inly problem is that this is my track bag.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
That link doesn't work for me, but https://vimeo.com/85896096 does
pumpkineater23 - - Vorredner #
Wow indeed. Very impressive.
It seems that this video has gone viral with 200k views already. This may in part be because it did well on Reddit. Now it's appeared on several non-juggling sites over the internet. Deservedly so. Well done to them for making such an amazing video and even more one that appeals to non-jugglers.
Daniel Simu - - Vorredner #
It reached me trough a non juggling channel before I saw it posted on facebook, and later I stumbled upon a gif from one of the tricks!
I wonder, what it is that makes it good for non jugglers!!
The colors of the clubs.
It was why some of my friends stopped when I was watching this video in the library.
I wondered why they stopped to watch this time and not the dozens of other times i'm watching juggling videos.
That's an interesting point that I hadn't considered. Maybe it helps the mugglers track the clubs and make more sense of the 'mess'. I think also the 'beer pong' style helped non-jugglers relate to it more.
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
Officially best passing video I've seen.
I personally think juggling should be an Olympic sport! What do u guys think? Should juggling be in the Olympics yes or no? And please try and give some sort of explanation , I think is should be because gym jugglers are athletes! They train just as long and hard and put on just as good of a show, even contact juggling is a real sport I think should be included in the Olympics .
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
I agree completely. Especially since it's a very global sport. It would increase appreciation for it all.
I do have to disagree with contact juggling though. Although I (as a novice contact juggler) understand that it is very difficult and requires practice, I don't think that the public would really receive it well. I can hear it now.. "he's just holding a ball and moving it around!" Although a really good juggler can portray that floaty illusion, we all know what is happening.
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
You all have good points. I think a better thing to say is that it would make me happy if say that summer Olympics 2015 there would be technical juggling. It doesn't have to continue on but it would be extremely entertaining to see the "best" (whether you would agree or not) from each country go for old with the awe of mesmerized crowds. I think it would be nice for at least once. Perhaps though that would be something the WJF would do instead of the Olympics.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
"contact juggling is a real sport I think should be included in the Olympics"
It's a girls sport
https://youtu.be/HiWOxcpxVvs
thegoheads - - Vorredner #
Wow! Awesome video, thanks for sharing.
I think peterbone's comment sums it up better than I could say it, as far as why juggling wouldn't work in the olympics. My personal problem with juggling in the olympics is if juggling became too mainstream I'm afraid it would lose some of it's magic for me. I'm sure there would be benefits too... I guess "hey, you should be in the olympics" sounds better than "hey, you should go on America's got talent!" haha.
Even when the WJF has offered decent prize money, it still doesn't draw in as many people as you would think. WJF10 will be December this year and first place will get $10,000! Plus they are doing a global regional video competition thing this year where people from all over the world can enter for a chance to win a trip here to Vegas to compete. Anyone who really likes to see juggling as a sport, WJF is the best we got. I'm hoping a lot of big names will show up this year, 10 grand would get my attention if I was good enough at the WJF tricks. Err, um.... I mean moves.
Rob van Heijst - - Vorredner #
Okay this is the second time I see someone calling tricks moves. I'm guessing that Jason has the fear that calling juggling tricks 'tricks' will make it sound less professional. Am I right?
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
The sports the WJF seek to emulate (gymnastics, diving, american wrestling) call the individual components "moves" so that's what the wtf calls them.
It's just a case of adopting an existing sorting terminology
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
iphone predictive spelling for the won
Rob van Heijst - - Vorredner #
In that perspective it makes sense.
I like the WTF lets keep that one in!
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
It's almost as if it someone should put it on a tshirt...
Cedric Lackpot - - Vorredner #
> It's a girls sport.Yep. That notorious girl Kati Yla-Hokkala, who has been a fundamental part of The Gandini Juggling Project since its inception, was the Finnish RG champion before she turned to juggling IIRC.Yay for girls!
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
Indeed, and had she been male she wouldn't have been allowed to compete. My intent was factual, not derogatory.
Ball/Hoop/Ribbon/Club/Rope events are female only floor events, just as Pommel Horse/Still Rings/Vault/Parallel Bars/High Bars are male only events.
Pierre Vdv - - Vorredner #
I do totally agree with you on both juggling and contact juggling. In my opinion the problem would come from the entry selection, since every country has to choose their champions. The difficulty would be to determine a global basic level and to decide how many participants each country can bring to the olympics.
Scoring could be similar to gymnastics or ice skating (as it's often said), with marks for both the tricks and the beauty of the whole routine. But then the hard part is to name and evaluate the difficulty of every trick on earth (I mean doing it officialy with the olympic commitee). Maybe it would take two separate categories, one for the "big classics" such as huge 7 club 5 up 360 etc. and another one just for creativity, where manipulation and just the creation of totally new patterns would be rewarded. (and I still think that part of juggling is a real sport).
But all in all it would be awesome to have such a beautiful stage for juggling!
Absolutely not. Firstly it's nowhere near popular enough. 99% of the general public wouldn't understand it. There are lots of other non Olympic sports that are a lot more popular, like karate, climbing and rugby. Secondly it would become far too competitive. It would become like gymnastics or trampolining where there are set moves and very little room for innovation - like the WJF but a lot worse. I think that juggling is just too broad an activity for inclusion. It would have to focus a lot more on one particular aspect and that would limit the number of competitors and public interest even more.
By the way, this subject has come up many times in the past on rec.juggling. This one for example.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.juggling/NGr4knIEMgE/f2DLO4oPcIgJ
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
Back in 2012, I spent a lot of the summer watching the gymnastics and the diving (for purely sporting reasons, there were no other reasons involved at all. Honest.) then once the Olympics were over I went back and re-watched some of the televised WJF competitions.
The WJF scoring made much more sense having spent all that time immersed in similar scoring methods. This escaped me completely the first time I watched the WJF.
Personally, I think that we're a long way off having the multinational structured competitions and globally recognised organisational body overseeing the sport and unifying competition rulesets etc which would be a prerequisite for it being recognised as an olympic sport - and even if we did it appears that once you get to that stage, you have to persuade the people running that organisational body to dissolve it and cede control to the IOC.
Which seems like more paperwork than any juggler I've ever met could be bothered with.
mike.armstrong - - Vorredner #
Was the WJF as erm, inspiring, as the diving and the gymnastics? ;o)
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
nowhere near it.
Although some of the haircuts were amusing.
Scott Seltzer - - Vorredner #
I came close to being that juggler. About 4.5 years ago I wrote a plan to get juggling into the 2020 Olympics. I did a lot of research and made many many notes on what it would realistically entail. My plan was basically to start with numbers and/or joggling since those are the easiest to judge (and wouldn't really go against Francis Brunn's purported quip: "I don't believe in juggling competitions. It's like seeing who could paint the fastest painting!" [1]), though I did consider eventually having some sort of freestyle event [2].
I shared my idea with only one other juggling activist and did get good response, but I chickened out before sending it to all the potential committee members I had considered.
-Scott
1. https://www.juggling.org/jw/86/1/brunn.html
2. See basically any discussion on juggling as art vs sport.
I think numbers juggling would be the only format that would make sense in the Olympics to a wide enough audience. The point of the Olympics is to answer the basic questions: Who can run the fastest? Who can jump the highest? Who can throw the farthest? For juggling the basic question is who can juggle the most objects?
Joggling while definitely requiring skill & athleticism will never be anything more than a novelty in the eyes of the general public.
I think those jugglers who think juggling can be a sport would like to see a competition based on rhythmic gymnastics & why not? The WJF have shown that juggling can fit that format. But then so could ballet or any other form of dancing. There are purely technical aspects to every performance art that could be measured as a sport. Should they all be Olympic sports too?
I'm not bothered whether juggling gets recognised as a sport or not. I practice my hobbies because I enjoy them, if everyone else on Earth thought that juggling was pointless, I'd still juggle. However, I'd hate to see it get to the point where 'armchair jugglers' came into existence.
I'd hate to see it get to the point where 'armchair jugglers' came into existence.
You are WAY too late on that one.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
Been rocking that lifestyle for over a decade
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
As well as joggling[1] or numbers I think the one which stands a half decent chance (based on widely recognised rule sets and formal competition) is probably volleyclub
Although major league combat seems to be developing some coherent international rules, it's a bit like kabaddi. Although that made it onto uk tv, it's not an Olympic sport. I wish it was though, I used to enjoy watching it on telly. Very entertaining!
[1] I still can't take joggling seriously, no matter how much Albert Lucas wants me to.
Fully agree the first point.
"The ultimate jugglers' sport. The bid for olympic acceptance starts here. "
https://www.capsule39.com/tlmb_volleyClub.php
Brook Roberts - - Vorredner #
Whilst I play a lot more combat, I agree on volleyclub being better as a sport. I should really get round to playing more often...but having played on sand courts it always looks less exciting when someone has put a net up in a gym at a convention, but you can't throw yourself after wayward clubs.
Brook Roberts - - Vorredner #
Luke is making a push for Europe wide Combat via http://www.lukeburrage.com/combat/index.php
I think volley club would be great but I'm curious what rule sets these are? I've only played very informally but there are lots of things that seem to me like they could be taken advantage of, it's just unsportsmanlike so few people do...
I actually think MLC is easier to do a formal sport in the olympics as the rules are very clear cut (with the exception of 360 combat which I don't think works well)
If juggling would be allowed as an olympic sport so much other disciplines would have to be allowed as well.
The term olympic sport would lose all meaning.
Why would we even want to become an olympic discipline?
Paperwork? involvement of politics and nationalism?
Daniel Simu - - Vorredner #
I think plate spinning should be an olympic sport.
No, seriously another thing that should be a reason for juggling NOT to be an olympic sport: There are not enough good jugglers! I think very few jugglers can compare to athletes of other olympic disciplines, the level can raise a lot still! Of course many people train hard, but without any knowledge/research about training methods, no coaches etc... We jugglers still have so much to learn!
Among the few people who are at the top, many of them are not interested in 'sport' juggling...
pumpkineater23 - - Vorredner #
The five ring Olympic symbol would work rather well I think. Isn't there a flaming club Olympic symbol too?
Pierre Vdv - #
Hey,
I'm a twenty year old engeneering student from belgium. Currently I'm working on balls (1-7) clubs (1-4) and rings (1-6, trying to learn a few cool tricks. Let's call it basic development for now :) hope to find some more motivation here.
Cheers.
Hi Pierre,
Welcome.
Where are you studying?
Once the sun returns I'll be juggling at the Arenbergpark in Heverlee again.
Very close the the engineering faculty of the KUL.
pumpkineater23 - - Vorredner #
Hello Pierre.. welcome.
Roflcopter - - Vorredner #
Willkommen
but they don't speak German in Belgium do they?
Pierre Vdv - - Vorredner #
I'm studying at the Ecole Polytechnique in Paris so actually I'm currently not in Belgium.
There's small part of belgium talking german, but it's mostly french and dutch.
Aber ich habe in meiner Kindheit in Bayern gewohnt, also ist Deutsch kein Problem ;)
Pierre Vdv - - Vorredner #
Nein genau das Deutsche Bundesland.
In Belgium you speak german in Eupen Malmedy.
Would anyone have any suggestions for what fillings to use in beanbags?
I thought about split peas and Jon said Millet seeds.
I've tried many different filling from plastic pellets to small glass beads, but millet seed seems to be the only option with the right density and feel.
Tracey used linseed in the balls she made me for Christmas and they work well for me.
Nigel
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
You need something
- small so the beanbag doesn't feel lumpy
- round so you can't feel "edges"
- hard so it doesn't break down too quickly in use
- dense enough that you can get the weight you want into the size you want
Millet generally ticks all those boxes, split peas will probably not meet any of the first three.
Some people use plastic pellets designed for weighing down soft toys so they sit up right, although they aren't dense enough for some weights, but can be augmented with buckshot - they're a more expensive option than millet.
Some people use crushed walnut shells (apparently sold for use in vivariums) but I've never seen any so don't know what it's like size wise, it should be plenty hard enough though.
Another important factor is smoothness of the surface so that the particles slide past each other easily. Millet is very low friction. Walnut shells will have very high friction, which will give a more crunchy feel.
I will give millet a go and I will try the walnut shell then compare the two.
For interest I ebayed crushed Walnut shell, you can buy it in different grades to be used for shot blasting, stone tumbling, as a powder for using as an ex foliating scrub or added to paint to crate a non slip surface.
The cheap and nasty red, yellow, green 4 panel juggling balls use crushed walnut shells as filling.
I'm reminded of some balls made by a young TWJC member many moons ago. She made some balls out of balloons filled with flour. They felt fantastic, certainly ticking LP's first 2 boxes, hardness doesn't really come into it because flour is so fine to start with & the weight was pretty good too.
...unfortunately she didn't realise that balloons degrade pretty quickly, & fine flour can escape through the smallest of holes into your kit bag very quickly & easily.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
Arf!
Incidentally, how come chocfest isn't shown as a reason for it being quiet today?
You mean the Chocfest XIX listed between InJuCo 2014 & 35e Cirque de Demain?
No idea.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
Well that's odd, I don't have any quietness notices at all. Is that an option I'd forgotten I'd turned off or something?
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
Ahh! Worked it out
When did they move to the bottom of the page? I was still looking up the top
er... (consults notes) 2nd of November. I felt the novelty had worn off a bit & during particularly busy periods it got in the way of the main content so shoved it down the bottom.
HardAttack27 - - Vorredner #
Bird seed
Daniel Simu - - Vorredner #
I lolled
So what exactly has upset Pavel?
I'd provide a link but Juggling Rock is now a closed group so not much point...
Rob van Heijst - - Vorredner #
Pavel posted a link to a game design contest (I believe) and if he got 200+ votes he'd make a new video. Someone called him out for spamming the group and asked if he would delete it. Pavel didn't like that and deleted him and everyone who liked his comment. I never read what the person said exactly and it's now deleted.
Maarten Wills or Willis was the one who replied to the game design thing.
He can probably tell you what he wrote.
I read it myself but didn't pay a lot of attention since it didn't seem important.
It was not very subtle but not insulting either, the message was something like
"Hi Pavel,
Please do not spam, if others posted this you would delete the message."
Pavel then seemngly went on a power trip.
ADMIN SMASH THEN ADMIN BAN THEN ADMIN JUGGLE
I believe that jugglingrock had close to 6000 members at a point, now there are 5004 so there's probably more to it then this.
Pavel just posted the following: ( I think he is pretty upset and hope he calms down and reconsiders soon)
About shit...
hey Guys who really knows me, understand what i am not doing something just like that! because i want etc. or have a power, or i am "a childish admin"))Norbi Whitney why you not say it here? guys smell from you in all internet space! i don't know you and all haters stay away from me , don't forget take your friends with you!
you see the message from Jacques Dupond THIS IS SPAM and this shit i delete everyday ! if you hear something, that not means you really know, what happens or becouse somebody say it to you.
No one of you will not telling me what to do!or what i have to do!
This Guy who write comment say what i have to delete my post?Really? who is he? my friend?no!he made this group?no! maybe he something did for this group(exept using?)no! because he thinking i am SPAMing here ADMIN SPAMING?1st i am not asking about his opinion,people who wants help me they will help,don't like roll down page thats easy))I warned him not speak with me like that! if you like use this page Welcome! NOT NEED TO SPECIFY what to do and how to manage page, I know my business!
This is my house and who don't like something delete yourself from here!
(I have no time for discussion)
Theme closed!
Daniel Simu - - Vorredner #
Well that makes him look professional...
As Gatto once said (in an almost identical situation):Internet jugglers don't feed my family or pay my bills
or something like that
Cedric Lackpot - - Vorredner #
... for values of 'professional' > 'massive flouncing dick'.
Maarten gives his description of what happened at www.facebook.com/groups/191720694192524/permalink/694357223928866 not viewable to non-facebook user (but prob not of interest either as it is about a facebook group dispute)
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
And *this* is precisely what happens every time a forum has active moderation... yet how many people have begged for moderation on rec.juggling over the years (not that it's needed anymore it's so low traffic)
I for one welcome Orinoco's light touch approach.
I don't think I do any moderating really. I've refused to invite a juggling ball wholesale manufacturer a couple of times (tip if you want to sign up: don't tell me that you are going to hawk a container load of juggling balls to the group in advance), but that's it. I provide a way to ignore people you don't want to see so it's all up to you. If you can't moderate yourself, the internet is not for you.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
I'm in 100% agreement on you with this. Hurrah!
If you can't moderate yourself, the internet is not for you.
Now, I won't criticise the moderation policy here because it's clearly working fine right now and nobody here is being obnoxious to anybody else that I noticed and jugglers are lovely, etc.
But in general I think this sentiment is poisonous. _The internet is for everybody_. Without any moderation, it's like watching while half the juggling club stop coming because they can't stand the one new guy who tells off colour jokes loudly the whole time. OK, maybe you let people "mute" this guy so they don't see him, but now every new person who walks through the door gets an earful of the inappropriate jokes AND ALSO sees that everyone else there says nothing and apparently thinks this is AOK.
As part of the 50% of the population that can't speak openly in large parts of the internet without receiving tirades of misogynistic insults and graphic rape threats I am biased on this issue. So what, the internet isn't for me?
On the other hand one of the reasons I like the juggling community is the total absence of that kind of bullshit, long may it continue.
Would you ban the people who make misogynistic insults & rape threats from using the internet? You stop short of saying you would because I think you realise that would directly contradict your statement that the internet is for everybody.
There are lots of people who I disagree with & some I outright hate. By the same token there are lots of people who disagree with & downright hate me. The same will apply to you. Which party gets to choose who can use the internet? I certainly don't think I have the right, because do you know what? Sometimes I'm wrong.
Nor do I feel I should be expected to look after you or anyone else. It is completely unfeasible to expect a moderator to protect everyone's sensibilities. Every single visitor will have a different level of tolerance, how am I supposed to know what is acceptable to who? The only person who can know your limit is you, which is why you must moderate for yourself.
If someone signed up to the Edge & started being offensive, I probably wouldn't ban them, but I would lay into them, & I expect most other Edge members would too. This is what makes the juggling community so good, there is very little tolerance of arseholes. Feedback is much more important than moderation. I remember as a teenager, at a time when I'd only been going to TWJC for a few months, someone tried to tell a racist joke. One of the guys just said with a subtle sneer, "I don't want to hear this" & walked off. This simple act of defiance had a really profound effect on me & I knew that TWJC was a great place. Before then I never would have had the confidence to stand up like that. If I visited your hypothetical juggling club I wouldn't go again not because of the offensive person but because it was full of people that tolerate offensive behaviour.
Out of interest, which large parts of the internet populated by misogynists & rapists are you visiting? I don't deny there are online communities of overly hateful people (Stormfront comes to mind) but I'd hardly call them large or successful & I struggle to believe a community comprised of arseholes is capable of functioning.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
I struggle to believe a community comprised of arseholes is capable of functioning.
I've got 4chan on line 2 for you...
Would you ban the people who make misogynistic insults & rape threats from using the internet?
No. I have no idea how we have got from "moderation is a good idea on forums" to "ban people from the internet".
Which party gets to choose who can use the internet?
The internet is for everybody. Everybody can use the internet. What they should not be able to do is make the internet intolerable for other people with impunity.
Every single visitor will have a different level of tolerance, how am I supposed to know what is acceptable to who?
The usual way this is done is to start with common decency and a reasonable sense of empathy, and combine that with listening to people when they mention that something or other bothers them, and taking a common sense approach to the whole thing overall.
I probably wouldn't ban them, but I would lay into them
This sounds exactly like active moderation to me, so I am confused as to what we are disagreeing about.
I struggle to believe a community comprised of arseholes is capable of functioning
I am literally completely taken aback that there is anyone existing on the internet who is oblivious to this! I mean, I would think you were joking or trolling but you don't seem to be. Many communities moderate the shit out of that stuff so it doesn't linger on stinking up the place, but Reddit, Twitter and Youtube are the biggest counterexamples that spring immediately to mind. See https://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome-internet-72170/ for the most recent article I saw on the subject, but a swift google turn ups millions more.
I don't suggest that communities are actually comprised entirely of arseholes; only that arseholes are plentiful, that failing to moderate them results in a hostile community, and that community owners and community leaders can't absolve themselves of responsibility for the results.
"No. I have no idea how we have got from "moderation is a good idea on forums" to "ban people from the internet"."
Ok, please read, "ban people from using a part of the internet", ala Pavel.
"This sounds exactly like active moderation to me, so I am confused as to what we are disagreeing about."
Sounds like we disagree about what moderation is. If I stop you from seeing an offensive post(er) I consider that moderation. Me expressing my opinion that the post(er) is unacceptable is not.
"I am literally completely taken aback that there is anyone existing on the internet who is oblivious to this!..."
Ah right, I don't consider Reddit/Twitter to be one community but hundreds of thousands of communities. To say otherwise is too broad a stroke for me.
Also my urlfilter blocks embedded facebook, twitter, G+, Youtube comments, disqus etc. which is why I probably find the internet to be a much nicer place than you. I assure you there are thousands of oblivious people like me who do the same.
Unfortunately you will find me a very irresponsible community leader. From my experience moderation causes the very behaviour it hopes to stamp out. If you start banning people then it becomes a game to circumvent the moderators & you end up with a load of anonymous accounts where consequences don't matter.
My experience of moderated communities is that the majority of most moderation work is in being present on the site setting the tone, in chatting to people and asking them to kindly knock it off, or deleting individual comments, and that banning people is an absolute last resort when offenders refuse to knock it off - which is pretty much a failure of moderation. Instabanning people for expressing disagreement with the moderators is not something I'm upholding as a paragon of modly virtue!
Nevertheless I'm pretty sure you'd ban someone if they spammed the house down, the same as you'd probably ban someone eventually if they showed up every day to berate people with offensive language.
Ah right, I don't consider Reddit/Twitter to be one community but hundreds of thousands of communities
I'd agree with that but don't see what it has to do with my actual point, which is that the (absence of a) moderation policy in those places allows the proliferation of really unpleasant shit which spoils everyone's day, apart from apparently the dungeon dwellers who write it.
This is what makes the juggling community so good, there is very little tolerance of arseholes
"Little tolerance of arseholes" is exactly what I would like to see. To me, saying "moderation is a bad thing" sounds like "The official policy of this site is that arsehole behaviour is welcome, and if you don't like it that's your problem". Which makes me sad, especially coming from a demographic disproportionately affected by that shit.
On the upside I am still pleased that this discussion is thus far academic as we do not seem to have been visited by any arseholes.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
I am still pleased that this discussion is thus far academic as we do not seem to have been visited by any arseholes.
There are apparently only 3 people on ignore, out of 578 registered users. That's not bad going.
Yes, setting the tone is one of the most important aspects of any online community & which is helped here by the invitations system but I don't feel that is moderation, that is just being a good citizen & should be the responsibility of everyone, not just a moderator.
"I'd agree with that but don't see what it has to do with my actual point"
Well when asked for an example of a large part of the internet that is a no go area for women, you kind of scoffed at me & suggested Reddit & Twitter, but I think there are huge parts of those sites that are most definitely female friendly zones (in fact of all the Twitter users that I know personally are overwhelmingly female), you yourself said they are not all bad. So... (I think Steve is in the same boat as me here) what large parts of the internet are no go areas for women?!
However, no need to answer because I see now that the existence or non existence of such a community is unimportant because you believe it is moderation that makes the large communities bearable. I also see that you have a much broader definitition of moderation than I do, & by your definition the Edge most certainly is a moderated community.
"But in general I think this sentiment is poisonous. _The internet is for everybody_."
I disagree!
Oh, wait, that wasn't what you meant?
thegoheads - - Vorredner #
"As part of the 50% of the population that can't speak openly in large parts of the internet without receiving tirades of misogynistic insults and graphic rape threats I am biased on this issue. So what, the internet isn't for me? "
What are you speaking about and where, that gives you an experience of constant misogynistic insults and rape threats? Perhaps those particular parts of the internet aren't for you if it bothers you so much. I'm sure there are more places in the real world you can go to literally get raped, robbed, beaten, murdered etc. and I'm sure you would avoid those places. I've learned that lesson the hard way many'a'time, and I know not to leave my house at night anymore. I get the idea of "why should the nice people leave because the assholes ruined it?" but also, why hang around somewhere full of assholes? And why waste the effort to try to get everyone on the same page as to what should or shouldn't be allowed or tolerable? That'll never happen!
And Orin, surely you would ban somebody if they started being pointlessly offensive to the extreme. Like multiple posts per day of senseless personal attacks or something like that. At least I hope you would block them. Luckily we never see much of that on juggling forums :)
-Steve
Banning people just causes sock puppets. I have features available that would er... help a troll reconsider their behaviour. But short of them posting a Womble mutilation video I don't think I'd ban them. In fact I think I'd only ban someone if it was really funny to do so.
thegoheads - - Vorredner #
"Banning people just causes sock puppets."
True, I guess I hadn't thought of it that way. I think your attitude toward the way this place is moderated is why I like it here :) Thinking back, I remember all the sock-puppetry on the Gatto and old WJF forums when people would get banned or whatnot. It does seem like a huge waste of everyone's time.
I suspect there are enough intelligent thinkers here to discourage crazy a**holes with challenging conversation. Over the years I've engaged some youtube trolls leaving A-hole comments on my videos, and in some cases it would eventually turn into a conversation and they would actually watch some of my other vids and leave nice comments. But, again, I haven't seen any A-holes here yet :)
-Steve
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
The example was give of offensive jokes, and recently I've been introduced to an effective way of dealing with them, which is to just say. "Nope, I don't get it. Can you explain what's funny?" and repeating that requesting an increasing amount of detail each time .
It's effective because you're not contradicting them, or enforcing your view on them, or giving something they can argue/pick holes in ... but it doesn't take long to get the message across that you're not the right audience for that sort of thing.
I've only had to use it a couple of times since I heard about it, but I'm enjoying it as an approach so far
One of my favourite troll abatement tactics which works best on threads started by a troll is to reply with a question that completely ignores the original poster's point. With a bit of luck it will be a good question & you can steal the limelight. It's especially effective if there is some sort of notification of a new post because every new notification is a new reminder that people are not interested in whatever diatribe was put forward & also gives a positive example of what people are interested in.
thegoheads - - Vorredner #
Haha! I do that exact same thing with "ball jokes", when someone compares my juggling apparatus to a part of the male anatomy, I act really confused and make them explain. Most people become uncomfortable really quickly when they realize they literally just started talking about testicles for no good reason. Totally turns it back on them. And you're right, in doing that I'm doing nothing more than asking them to explain what THEY are talking about.
What are you speaking about and where, that gives you an experience of constant misogynistic insults and rape threats? Perhaps those particular parts of the internet aren't for you if it bothers you so much
Already covered in another comment further up.... And indeed it's quite obvious that those bits of the internet are not for me. Fifty years ago my job would have been not for me and a hundred years my house and my vote would have been not for me. Things are getting better.
And why waste the effort to try to get everyone on the same page as to what should or shouldn't be allowed or tolerable? That'll never happen!
I've seen productive discussions before about community norms and moderation, and I think in general most people are able to talk about things in good faith and learn to understand where other people are coming from. Is it really completely impossible that I could say "look, here is a point of view you probably haven't considered" and have someone or other go "oh well I hadn't really seen it like that before!" ??
thegoheads - - Vorredner #
"Already covered in another comment further up"
I still don't see it.... perhaps I need my eyes checked? If you meant the article you linked to I clicked it and it wouldn't load for me.
"Is it really completely impossible that I could say "look, here is a point of view you probably haven't considered" and have someone or other go "oh well I hadn't really seen it like that before!" ??"
That is fully possible and quite common, and great, too! However, your scenario involves two people considering different points of view, my point was about all of humanity coming to a concrete agreement about what is acceptable on the internet. What were we talking about?
-Steve
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
perhaps I need my eyes checked
You need https://www.streetcred.biz/accessories-c2/contact-lenses-c39/funky-lenses-c40/checkered-contact-lenses-p501
The article I linked was this one https://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome-internet-72170/
but there are plenty more at the end of a quick google.
my point was about all of humanity coming to a concrete agreement about what is acceptable on the internet. What were we talking about?
You were directly replying to me, asking me what was the point of trying to get humanity to come to a concrete agreement about what is acceptable on the internet. Assuming it wasn't a random non sequitur, I suppose that you were suggesting a) that I was doing that and b) that it was pointless. I suggested that what I was in fact doing was a) something else and b) not pointless.
Well that's what I was talking about anyway.
thegoheads - - Vorredner #
Reading my original post again, my point was rather vague, and parts of it were just thoughts on the topic and may not have been directly aimed at you, my apologies :)
I think I was mostly agreeing with Orin that everyone has to moderate themselves to some extent, and I was also genuinely curious what topic you're into and where you discuss it on the internet that has given you such a bad experience with threats and such.
thegoheads - - Vorredner #
"also genuinely curious what topic you're into and where you discuss it on the internet that has given you such a bad experience "
Also, link still isn't working for me and I was interested in your point of view rather than googling why women aren't welcome on the internet. Did you write the article? Is that what I'm missing?
no, but I don't really want to derail a juggling forum any further with what was intended to be a trivial aside to explain why moderation is nice and benefits some people even more than others.
Happy to discuss this shit somewhere more appropriate with anyone somewhere else, so long as the anyones can keep the discussion in good faith and we are on "try to understand another point of view" and not "make Emily defend the entire minority population of the internet" or "massive debate about the precise detail of the wording of a comment rather than discussing the actual point".
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
"massive debate about the precise detail of the wording of a comment rather than discussing the actual point"
But...
isn't that how internet arguments are supposed to work?
Cedric Lackpot - - Vorredner #
Oh no it isn't!!
#panto #trivialisingtheserious
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
Oh come on! You could of at least misplaced the apostrophe ;)
The link worked for me, it's by a reporter that gets death and other threats via twitter. Harrasment on the internet is an old story. I think it broke into the non-internet in 1993 https://www.juliandibbell.com/texts/bungle_vv.html It's a little long by today's standards. LambdaMOO still operates but few people visit.
Defamation and harrasment require a communication channel and there is no law in physics that says the internet is any different. Community requires shared values.
If you can't moderate yourself, the internet is not for you.
Prolly better to think of this as "running a forum on the internet is not for you". The Edge is great, partly because Orinoco is a moderate moderator.
Any person operating a system that accepts user input must filter it at several levels if they want to maintain operations. Some are there to protect the server. There are character strings you cannot enter into this box and have them appear on this forum. Some filters are there to prevent massive advertisement. And any system run by identifiable people must moderate defamation and the promotion of illegal activity. r.j only filters at the first level although most web portals also filter the second level. But r.j does not have a person or sponsor with something to lose if people or government entities object to what is posted.
If we are counting protecting the server from attack as moderation then I make Darth Vader look like a hippy.
pumpkineater23 - - Vorredner #
If only he'd lived just a little longer I think he would have found his inner hippy.
sigh. i was coming from an experience many years ago in a nearby galaxy when I ran a bbs that would accept any ascii character and you could, for example, write strings that said one thing and then back-spaced ^H over it for an impressive effect on your screen. In the really early days we could do that without passwords.
The point is it's all filtered or moderated, it's all about where you draw the line. I trust you to do the right thing, I think we all do or we wouldn't be here.
Oh no, I joined the dark side.
I've been made a moderator on the new 'juggling in Europe' group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/191720694192524/)
You are all welcome to join and remind me not to **** things up.
I hope jugglingrock pulls through but it seems that some changes Pavel made are irreversible.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
I would, if it wasn't Facebook.
...& to further confuse everyone there is now a new group called Juggling Home which has just popped up. I think I'm a member of all these groups but it's all just making my head spin at the moment.
I think everyone would benefit from having a nice cup of tea & a sit down for a while.
I suggest joining whatever pops up and review in a months which groups flourish and which wither.
For those who haven't found juggling Home yet : https://www.facebook.com/groups/1514667295424548/
I thought juggling in Europe was an alternative group created by Maarten but it seemed to have a history before that.
Instead of stealing juggling in Europe away from the original members it was decided creating a new group with a more global name was a better option.
Now as long as nobody asks me who decided what and where did he/she get the authority I can pretend to know what's going on.
(Illuminati have plans for the juggling world, Jason Garfield's secret plot splinters facebook groups, jugglers crawl back to WJF forums, Pavel asks for asylum inside Gatto's forums , bans keep protesters at bay.
Michael Bay acquires movie rights. )
There was a poll on Juggling in Europe to decide the name of the new group and Juggling Home won, so that group was created. The idea is to have quite a large number of admins from all over the world.
anything on facebook will always have the potential audience smaller than anything not on facebook.
so why do people keep trying to drag things onto facebook?
Because it feels as though the opposite is true. Also, in terms of time spent on activity x, if activity x is on Facebook, although less users might be on it, there's a good opportunity that people will spend a great deal of time on it.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
Weren't you heavily plugging a juggling G+ thing a while back? :P
Potential audience is very different to the realistically potential audience. JugglingRock was a lot more active than any other juggling internet community I've ever used - and I've used most of them.
I started using facebook because I checked jugglingrock.
I had an account for ages but even now I mainly just read the groups there.
You use an account here so I don't really see the problem with making an account on facebook for a group there.
"so why do people keep trying to drag things onto facebook?"
It's a lot easier than coding your own!
Lolz, sounds like he's on some kind of power trip, I left juggling rock cause I was sick of seeing it in my Facebook feed 24x7, and this just re-affirms to me that it was the right decision.
People like that really grind my gears, he could do with a good smack no doubt, but failing that for everyone to leave "his house" and let him fade into obscurity.
Daniel Simu - - Vorredner #
So I understand it got to the point where everyone who 'liked' the responses of people complaining about Pavel posting spam got banned from the group...
On top of that, when I read the title "What upset Pavel" I had to think of his performances:
He was performing for Christmas in my home town. I went to see the show with the people from the local youth circus and it was really great! However, also everybody was talking about how the juggler was so visibly upset about the many drops he had during the performance.
I talked to some people who went to see the show later who also noted that he dropped a lot.
So I can imagine.. If you are a Russian juggler who tries to make a solo career in the west, and you feel a big pressure because the internet thinks you are one of the best in the world, you can get very upset if thinks don't work out as you wish they'd did!
Poor Pavel... I've had to deal with upset people far away from their homes before, and life can feel really hard if there are expectations you can not meet!
Why are juggling club handles tapered? I can't think of any tricks that can only be done or are made easier by having tapered handles. I understand tapering from the body into the handle, but once you're onto the handle what's the need?
Browsing through the innovative club sections at David's collection of historical juggling props from 1895-1970 & 1970 to present everything appears to have a tapered handle apart from the hollow exhibition club & the Arthur Mann clubs (or at least it looks that way to me).
Is there a reason or is it just traditional?
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
I've always assumed it's because the inside of your fist is tapered
Is it? I'm not sure how to test that but I find gripping a club handle in a fist the wrong way (bulb by the little finger) feels more comfortable than the correct way (bulb by the thumb) so I think my fist tapers the other way.
Little Paul - - Vorredner #
"Is it? I'm not sure how to test that"
Make a loose fist. Turn it over so you're looking at the hole by your little finger and make a note of its size. Measure it with a set of callipers you're feeling keen. Now look at the hole at the thumb end. Is it bigger or smaller?
Personally, my little finger is significantly shorter than my index finger which leads to the little finger end being noticeably smaller than the other end, which implied the inside of my fist is tapered.
Well if I make a fist there are no holes at all, if I loosen my grip then I can make the holes at both ends of the fist any size that I want. If I try to loosen my fingers equally I'd say the hole at the bottom of the fist is much larger because it doesn't include the butt of my thumb. I suppose one way to look at it would be to ignore the thumb completely the little finger is the shortest finger on the hand so can obviously grip a smaller circumference.
But I don't think that's really important because I generally don't hold my clubs in a fist (aside from tomahawk or overhead throws). I'm curious as to why tapered handles are used on juggling clubs but not on swords, tennis rackets, cricket bats etc.
Daniel Simu - - Vorredner #
To proof that your fist is tapered:
Hold the lower part of the body of the club with your hand (club straight up.) squeeze with your hand, and with the other hand try and move the club around in your hand. Not possible. Now hold the top part of the body with your hand, so that your thumb site has the narrow part and your pinky the wide part. If you now try and move the club aronud you can always pull it out of the hand, no matter how hard you squeeze!
If I hold the top part & pull down it comes out easily. If I hold the bottom part & push up it comes out just as easily, but I understand what you are saying. If the the taper is there to make it harder for you to slip a club from knob to body what is the reason for this?
Also, your exercise suggests that your fist is tapered the opposite way to that which LP describes.
Some ideas, in addition to LP's:
- Because you need different widths for different things. The narrow part is useful for launching and catching many clubs from one hand. The wide part is more comfortable for catching once you're into the juggle.
- So that you know where on the handle you've caught the club without looking.
I did think about your first point, it's never affected me as I've never needed to hold more than 3 in one hand but I can see more numbers inclined jugglers needing thinner handles. However I think of numbers club juggling as relatively new. From what I've read in the past people preferred to juggle higher numbers of sticks rather than clubs which I presume were not tapered.
I thought about your second point too, if I'm juggling with my eyes open (ie most of the time) even if I can't see my hands I know where I will be holding the club before I've caught it. I tried flipping a club with my eyes closed & really thought about how I feel where I am. Primarily if I can feel the centre tape or the knob I know I'm at the top or bottom very easily. If I can't I judge where my hand is by the leverage of the body, if it is heavier I'm close to the bottom, if it's light I'm close to the top.
Guess I should build myself some straight handled clubs & see if a reason becomes clear.
Daniel Simu - - Vorredner #
How about sliding down to the knob? That is super easy thanks to the tapered handles!
How is that different from sliding down a straight handle?
Fireman's poles: also not tapered.
you have open your hands at least a little bit with a straight handle otherwise you'll have friction.
A tapered handle gets thinner so unless you close your hand a club that can glide through your hand will not be stopped till you reach the knob.
Fireman's poles need to generate a constant amount of friction to slow you down, for a club weighing 200g or something that isn't necessary.
Again how is that different? You have to open your hands with a tapered handle otherwise you'll have friction. Hold a club at the centre, now try slipping it without relaxing your grip.
Daniel Simu - - Vorredner #
Very different.
Try it with a club, hold it in the center and pull the club up. Goes easily. Now turn the club upside down and hold the end and push the club up. Does not go easily. Even if I squeeze very hard I can get it from center to knob, the other way round is impossible.
I think there are a lot of valid reasons in this thread, you just seem to ignore all..
It's called playing devil's advocate.
I get that the taper can inhibit the movement of the club in one direction but I don't understand how it applies to juggling.
When you slip a club while juggling you do it with one hand not two. Are there any juggling tricks that involve you pushing/pulling a club through your hand as you describe? If there are why would you grip tightly so that a taper is necessary? Were those tricks common in the early 1900s?
I would expect early clubs to have straight handles because they are easier to make. But that doesn't seem to be the case or are there straight handled clubs that predate David's collection?
Massimiliano
Truzzi preferred clubs with untapered handles.
Truzzi's clubs were tapered, just in the opposite direction as normal clubs. I'm still really trying to get a hold of one of his props.
David
I thought that from the picture, but figured it was just a trick of perspective.
I emailed Renegade & Henry's to see what they thought. Bob from Renegade didn't give any reasons & just said it was subjective. Nothing back from Henry's yet. Perhaps there is no functional reason & David had it right when he said it just looks better.
I think it's also stronger. Especially with the original one piece wooden clubs. You don't want any sudden change in angle between the head and the handle where it would be weaker. Even for modern multi-piece clubs I think the tapered shape makes the club bend less (triangles).
This would be my assumption why handles might be thicker at the body end (other than for aesthetic or ease of manufacture reasons) my Radical Fish clubs always seemed to break in the middle where the handle met the body (this might also be due to maximum stress or the staple going into the dowel creating a weak point).
I also found when making juggling clubs out of chocolate the fact the body contracted to the handle and formed a corner created a weak point where the chocolate clubs would break (unless reinforced with extra chocolate) - though I appreciate plastic might have different properties than chocolate .
They were for Chocfest, I decided in view of their fragility they were not a success, so we ate them at juggling. Claire managed to make some slightly more robust ones in the shape of Radical Fish clubs, but then found someone who worked at the chocolate development department at Terrys (or Rowntrees) who made some chocolate clubs which were then given away as prizes at Chocfest.
All the chocolate juggling clubs were full size so contained quite a lot of chocolate.
I sliced a beard one-piece club in half to make two moulds and then joined the two halves together (like a hollow chocolate easter egg).
Claire made a mould out of silicone using a club as the form, I don't know what the professional chocolatier did.
Since Van Wycks were the first clubs made for juggling, there aren't any clubs that predate anything from my collection! Very interesting discussion.
David Cain
Perhaps the padding function is easier to provide tapered. Or at least it can be padded as it leaves the body without making the whole handle the size at the top of the handle.
Years ago I made a set of clubs from plastic soda bottles and pvc pipes. Cute but not much fun to juggle. The "green" club with a tapered handle is a big improvement. I also made a set of torches from aluminum pipes and pipe insulator material. The outer diameter of the padded cylinder was about 3 cm. This made it clumsy to hold two in one hand and cleanly release one. Commercial torches with tapered padding are much easier to hold.
Solid handled torches are also tapered. Padding is provided by the soft tissue of the palm which is thinner on the thumb side. A tapered handle can strike both sides at the same time at a different rotation angle than a cylindrical handle. A tapered padded handle provides more give on the less padded thumb side of the palm.
Or perhaps it just looks better.
I thought the modern juggling club design originated from the design of heavy old wooden swinging clubs.
Assuming this, no explanation that involves juggling the club seems right, as basic swinging tricks won't have club throwing in them.
Maybe the explanation is, that making clubs out of wood is easier, when making them tapered.